I also was pretty proud of my answers, so I had to share.
The article I read was basically about how church leaders are cruel an need to be more aware of the times and get with it. That we have strayed from the path as a church and have corrupt and false prophets leading us.
Lemme know what you think!
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Me:
This article raised a question in my soul: Who are we to criticize the Lord, His Church, or those whom He has called? Perhaps this "deviation" from the "good-ole-days" is not so much a problem with the church, but with those who look at it with an increasingly tainted lens as the enemy of us all gains greater control over the children of men.
Don't forget that this life is a TEST! A test that is designed to push us and help us learn what we must learn by the One who knows us perfectly. Tests, by nature, push us and are uncomfortable. What's more is this test isn't just designed to test our knowledge, but our character - another matter entirely. Facts are easily regurgitate-able. Character cannot be faked, especially to a Being who knows us perfectly.
Often these tests come through trials, afflictions, and all the "unfair-ities" that the infernal realms and those that serve them can throw at us. Although He is not the source of suffering and pain, He DOES ALLOW IT to show us how broken and hurt we are. All the unfairness in the world is a part of the greater and far grander design of God.
I am not naive. I am not just a blind follower, doing whatever I am told without question. Quite the opposite, actually. I deal on a personal level with some of the issues talked about in this article. I know the hurt and fear I experience comes because I lack understanding of the trial's purpose. I know that the fear comes when I depart from my God toward a path that He has forbidden - NOT because He wants to put me into a box, but because He knows that the path is made up of briers and thorns that will poke, prod and hurt; thorns tipped in poison which is designed to make me feel that I know more than the Being who created me and that I am perfectly fine, when in actuality I am rotting from the inside out.
In such a state, I would be uncomfortable. That does NOT mean, however, that I then blame my discomfort on the Lord or his chosen Prophets. As I stated earlier, my discomfort came from my actions and lack of faith, not from the doctrines of the gospel and the explanations thereof that fall from the Prophet's (and therefore CHRIST'S) lips (D&C1:38).
________________________________
Joshua,
I'm not being sarcastic when I say this, but there are those who believe we are not to criticize anyone--
including the governments of the world, including the U.S. government (which I believe is quite evil)--
I think those people are just a lot more Christlike than I am.
I don't think that being critical of some of the church programs is the same as being critical of God, though.
I really do keep God separate from the church--
but I believe that God uses evil people to do His work, of all strange things, and He uses people who aren't that Christlike to test His most humble people--
He just uses everything and everyone, and He will sort it out.
What you said in the last part of your post really made sense to me.
HE will sort it all out.
But I can't keep my mouth shut when I see abuse, whether in the government or in the church (any church)--
I'm not being sarcastic when I say this, but there are those who believe we are not to criticize anyone--
including the governments of the world, including the U.S. government (which I believe is quite evil)--
I think those people are just a lot more Christlike than I am.
I don't think that being critical of some of the church programs is the same as being critical of God, though.
I really do keep God separate from the church--
but I believe that God uses evil people to do His work, of all strange things, and He uses people who aren't that Christlike to test His most humble people--
He just uses everything and everyone, and He will sort it out.
What you said in the last part of your post really made sense to me.
HE will sort it all out.
But I can't keep my mouth shut when I see abuse, whether in the government or in the church (any church)--
BK said...
Joshua,
You are assuming (as you've just chosen to believe) that the leaders of the LDS Church are called by God and that he backs them and that they are following Christ. None of which is true in my opinion when you 'prove all things' and not just blindly accept what they tell you.
And who are we to judge or criticize them or warn others about them? Christ commanded us to, and he told us how to judge true prophets from false ones. And in doing so we can see that the Church leaders are not following Christ, nor do they have charity, nor were they called by God nor do they have any authority or keys from him, nor are they even righteous or honest.
It appears you have followed blindly and have not researched and studied how Brigham Young took over the church, by vote and then by prideful power and persuasion, not by revelation or calling from God.
And it wasn't the whole church who followed him either, just a part of the Church Joseph started. Many or most members refused to follow Brigham out west back then because they thought of him like we think of Warren Jeffs today.
It appears you aren't aware how Joseph Smith taught completely contrary to BY and today's church, and from what is written by and of Joseph, he almost surely was about to excommunicate BY and other apostles for whoredoms like polygamy, but died before he could do it. And afterwards BY was not going to ex himself of course.
Why would you ever believe such a man could be righteous, let alone continue the Church with God's or Joseph's blessings?
What about the RLDS Church, it was founded by an Apostle and many former members also, and was just another break off of Joseph's original church like the LDS church is. There was no difference, except # of members which means nothing.
It appears you have just assumed and believed what Brigham Young and the leaders up to today have told you, without proving it to be true and doing your own homework.
And we don't prove things by warm fuzzies (for people in all religions get the same warm fuzzies about their religion as LDS do and think it's God too)
But we prove people, prophets and churches by the words of Christ, which proves the LDS Church is false for it is not following Christ. That at least is very clear.
I know 6 year olds who know and understand Christ's teachings better then any LDS leader I know does. But then most just make excuses for the church saying that somehow Christ's words aren't valid today. And most buy it cause it's easier.
You are assuming (as you've just chosen to believe) that the leaders of the LDS Church are called by God and that he backs them and that they are following Christ. None of which is true in my opinion when you 'prove all things' and not just blindly accept what they tell you.
And who are we to judge or criticize them or warn others about them? Christ commanded us to, and he told us how to judge true prophets from false ones. And in doing so we can see that the Church leaders are not following Christ, nor do they have charity, nor were they called by God nor do they have any authority or keys from him, nor are they even righteous or honest.
It appears you have followed blindly and have not researched and studied how Brigham Young took over the church, by vote and then by prideful power and persuasion, not by revelation or calling from God.
And it wasn't the whole church who followed him either, just a part of the Church Joseph started. Many or most members refused to follow Brigham out west back then because they thought of him like we think of Warren Jeffs today.
It appears you aren't aware how Joseph Smith taught completely contrary to BY and today's church, and from what is written by and of Joseph, he almost surely was about to excommunicate BY and other apostles for whoredoms like polygamy, but died before he could do it. And afterwards BY was not going to ex himself of course.
Why would you ever believe such a man could be righteous, let alone continue the Church with God's or Joseph's blessings?
What about the RLDS Church, it was founded by an Apostle and many former members also, and was just another break off of Joseph's original church like the LDS church is. There was no difference, except # of members which means nothing.
It appears you have just assumed and believed what Brigham Young and the leaders up to today have told you, without proving it to be true and doing your own homework.
And we don't prove things by warm fuzzies (for people in all religions get the same warm fuzzies about their religion as LDS do and think it's God too)
But we prove people, prophets and churches by the words of Christ, which proves the LDS Church is false for it is not following Christ. That at least is very clear.
I know 6 year olds who know and understand Christ's teachings better then any LDS leader I know does. But then most just make excuses for the church saying that somehow Christ's words aren't valid today. And most buy it cause it's easier.
Joshua Henricksen,
With all due respect you need to re-read D&C 1:38, study it carefully and try to understand what it is really saying.
With all due respect you need to re-read D&C 1:38, study it carefully and try to understand what it is really saying.
Joshua Henricksen,
You have fallen victim to one of the myths prevalent in the church, the one where D&C 1:38 is frequently quoted to imply that whenever the presidents of the church open their mouths to speak, they are speaking with the voice of God.
Gary Hunt has suggested you look that verse over carefully until you recognize the error of that assumption. I'll go further and recommend you read the entire revelation.
It does not appear that when the Lord made reference there to his "servants" that he had in mind future presidents of the Church. Indeed, it's apparent to me that those "servants" referred to did not even include Joseph Smith, but angelic messengers such as Moroni; and possibly ancient prophets such as Ezekial, Hosea, and Isaiah who had prophesied of things that had not yet come to pass.
But not Joseph Smith or any of his successors.
Context is everything, and we Mormons are as proficient in taking scriptures out of context to support false assumptions as any Baptist I've ever known.
You have fallen victim to one of the myths prevalent in the church, the one where D&C 1:38 is frequently quoted to imply that whenever the presidents of the church open their mouths to speak, they are speaking with the voice of God.
Gary Hunt has suggested you look that verse over carefully until you recognize the error of that assumption. I'll go further and recommend you read the entire revelation.
It does not appear that when the Lord made reference there to his "servants" that he had in mind future presidents of the Church. Indeed, it's apparent to me that those "servants" referred to did not even include Joseph Smith, but angelic messengers such as Moroni; and possibly ancient prophets such as Ezekial, Hosea, and Isaiah who had prophesied of things that had not yet come to pass.
But not Joseph Smith or any of his successors.
Context is everything, and we Mormons are as proficient in taking scriptures out of context to support false assumptions as any Baptist I've ever known.
Joshua Henricksen said...
G and A:
I have re-read the scripture and I have done a bit of research regarding the word "servant." My opinion has not changed. I would invite the two of you to go back through the Doctrine and Covenants and look at how often the Lord refers to the mortal men and women mentioned in those revelations as his servants.
Please also see verses 14 and 17-18 where it not only references the angelic messengers, but also future presidents and apostles and Joseph Smith himself, calling him a servant. I would invite the two of you to go back and re-read the revelation to find the true meaning of D&C 1:38.
I have re-read the scripture and I have done a bit of research regarding the word "servant." My opinion has not changed. I would invite the two of you to go back through the Doctrine and Covenants and look at how often the Lord refers to the mortal men and women mentioned in those revelations as his servants.
Please also see verses 14 and 17-18 where it not only references the angelic messengers, but also future presidents and apostles and Joseph Smith himself, calling him a servant. I would invite the two of you to go back and re-read the revelation to find the true meaning of D&C 1:38.
Joshua Hendricksen,
Here's the scripture. Let me walk you through it.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
The subject of the first phrase is what the Lord has spoken. The next four phrases tells us that he doesn't make excuses for what he has said. What he says will be fullfilled. The last phrase is what get many members mixed up.
"...whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same."
What is the subject the Lord is refering to? It is the words the Lord, Himself has actually spoken. It doesn't matter if the vehicle for distributing His words is His own voice or the voice of one of his servants. Many member interpret this to mean that whenever a servant speaks it is the same as if the Lord was speaking. They forget the prerequisite that the Lord has to be speaking in the first place for it to be the same.
Do you get it now?
Here's the scripture. Let me walk you through it.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
The subject of the first phrase is what the Lord has spoken. The next four phrases tells us that he doesn't make excuses for what he has said. What he says will be fullfilled. The last phrase is what get many members mixed up.
"...whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same."
What is the subject the Lord is refering to? It is the words the Lord, Himself has actually spoken. It doesn't matter if the vehicle for distributing His words is His own voice or the voice of one of his servants. Many member interpret this to mean that whenever a servant speaks it is the same as if the Lord was speaking. They forget the prerequisite that the Lord has to be speaking in the first place for it to be the same.
Do you get it now?
Joshua Henricksen said...
@G - I understand that completely. What you don't understand is that is exactly what General Conference is! Please see vs 20 where it states that the Lord wants every man (and that term refers to women as well - think of the context) to speak in His name. This is not to replace Him. Quite the contrary - it is rather that we are close enough to Him that we say what He would. Please also see Official Declaration 1 where President Woodruff tells us that, "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty." The oracles of God include the Quorum of the 12, because we sustain them as prophets, seers, and revelators (please see "Revelation" in the Bible Dictionary, 2nd paragraph. A search on LDS.org of "revleators" in the scriptures section will be most helpful).
With all of this as evidence, do you really think that the Lord would allow His chosen servants to speak something from the pulpit at General Conference that wouldn't be what He would say if He were there Himself?
With all of this as evidence, do you really think that the Lord would allow His chosen servants to speak something from the pulpit at General Conference that wouldn't be what He would say if He were there Himself?
Joshua,
Yes, I for one do believe the Lord definitely allows LDS leaders to teach falsehoods and lead the people astray, just like he allows all leaders in other churches to lead people astray.
You're assuming what W.W. said was true, why do you just blindly believe him or any LDS leader?
Church history and the scriptures have proven that what W.W. said is totally false, that Prophets and Church leaders can and have taught falsehoods and led the Church astray many times over, especially Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
False prophets usually try to convince their followers that they can't be wrong, that is nothing new. We need to be smarter then that.
We have to be wise and use discernment in everything so-called prophets or anyone says, teaches or claims.
But I can see why people fall for such leader & falsehoods like 'the prophet can't lead the Church astray', for it's much easier then having to do your own homework & prove all things & live righteously to have the discernment to see through their errors and evils.
I believe that most people who are led astray 'want to be' or don't care that they are led astray, for it's just easier then standing for right & following Christ.
And God lets people believe whatever they want, whether right or wrong.
Yes, I for one do believe the Lord definitely allows LDS leaders to teach falsehoods and lead the people astray, just like he allows all leaders in other churches to lead people astray.
You're assuming what W.W. said was true, why do you just blindly believe him or any LDS leader?
Church history and the scriptures have proven that what W.W. said is totally false, that Prophets and Church leaders can and have taught falsehoods and led the Church astray many times over, especially Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
False prophets usually try to convince their followers that they can't be wrong, that is nothing new. We need to be smarter then that.
We have to be wise and use discernment in everything so-called prophets or anyone says, teaches or claims.
But I can see why people fall for such leader & falsehoods like 'the prophet can't lead the Church astray', for it's much easier then having to do your own homework & prove all things & live righteously to have the discernment to see through their errors and evils.
I believe that most people who are led astray 'want to be' or don't care that they are led astray, for it's just easier then standing for right & following Christ.
And God lets people believe whatever they want, whether right or wrong.
G said...
Joshua,
I am well aware of everything you have brought up. I have studied them for many years. I would say the thing you are unaware of is that presidents and apostles of the church have contradicted each other on numerous occasions. These occasions include General Conference. Let me give you some examples.
JOSEPH SMITH: Millennial Star, Vol 14, Number 38, pages 593-595. [(Apostle Samuel Richards on Nov. 13, 1852, recorded in the Millennial Star, 14:393-395.)] "We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them [even] if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves."
Brigham Young at the Provo, Utah Bowery Conference in 1867 "Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people."
These two statements contradict what Wilford Woodruff stated when offering his opinion.
Pres. John Taylor told the people that if they found that he erred in doctrine that they should come to him and discuss the doctrine. If that person could prove him wrong he would admit it and consider it a blessing. He also expected the other person, if he proved them wrong, to admit it.
I am not trying to put down the leaders. They are human. They have their opinions and they express them. Even in Conference. Assuming the things they say are the same as the Lord speaking, just because of their position, is spiritual laziness. The Lord has given us a way to know if what they say is true or not.
Listening to conference, I have had experiences where the Holy Ghost has witnessed to me that what a particluar leader has said is true. I have also had experiences where the Holy Ghost has witnessed to me that what a particular leader has said is not true. The bottom line it ultimately is between the God and us. He reveals his truths to us through the Holy Ghost.
A final quote from Brigham Young.
"I have often said
to the Latter-day Saints--
Live so that you will know whether I teach you the
truth or not.
Suppose you are careless and unconcerned,
and give way to the
spirit of the world,
and
I am led, likewise,
to preach the things of this world
and to accept things that are NOT of God,
how easy it would be for me to lead you astray!
But I say to you, live so that you will know
for yourselves whether I tell the truth or not.
That is the way we want all Saints to live."
(Brigham Young, JD 18:248
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At this point I didn't bother responding. If you think I'm wrong or have anything to add, please post in the comments below. I'd love to hear what you have to say!
